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Who's the Mama?

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1 Who's the Mama? on Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:16 pm

We briefly reviewed the short vowels (fat-ha, kasra, dhammah) and long vowels (alif, waw saakin preceded by dhammah, yaa sakin preceded by kasra). There is a discussion that is quite entertaining concerning which originated from which. 

Did the short vowels come from the long vowels...or did the long vowels come from the short vowels?

So what do you think? Why?



Last edited by Asiyyah Bint Dawud on Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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2 Re: Who's the Mama? on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:16 pm

The short vowels came from the long vowels. ا is the mother of fatha, ي is the mother of kasra, and و is the mother of dhamma.

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3 Re: Who's the Mama? on Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:15 pm

The short vowels came first then it was the long vowel because they're were dots on top of the letters and they were replaced with fatha karsa and dhammah

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4 Re: Who's the Mama? on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:52 pm

nase.elah wrote:The short vowels came from the long vowels. ا is the mother of fatha, ي is the mother of kasra, and و is the mother of dhamma.
That's one of the opinions, jazaakillaahu khairan. Why do you think some hold this position instead of the opposite? 
What logical or fundamental reasoning may they use to support their argument?

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5 Re: Who's the Mama? on Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:25 pm

Aasiyah wrote:The short vowels came first then it was the long vowel because they're were dots on top of the letters and they were replaced  with fatha karsa and dhammah
OK! So it seems like you take the second opinion that "the long vowels originate from the short vowels". Your answer is very thoughtful, jazaakillaahu khairan. 
Writing definitely has developed and modernized over time however that is the case for both vowels and letters. As for the vowels, as you mentioned, Abul Aswad Ad--Du'ali had created a dot system to represent each vowel. Later Imam Al Faraaheedee invented the diacritical marks we use today. Similar can be said for the  letters, though. If you can recall in our class discussions, the early masaahif did not have dots on the letters. Even today the system of portraying some letters (in form or dots) can look slightly different depending on the region. Also, we can't forget that Imam Al faraaheedee chose the shape of hamza because previously there was not a symbol for it. Thus, the letter and diacritical marks systems were developing somewhat simultaneously. 
Let's shift the focus from writing to speaking since, undoubtedly, the sounds of the letters existed even if a certain letter wasn't yet accounted for in writing. What do you think about establishing an argument (for your position) using that angle?

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6 Re: Who's the Mama? on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:36 pm

I think that they short vowels came first

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7 Re: Who's the Mama? on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:36 pm

Because they didn't use dots or vowels back in the time when the Qur'aan was being revealed, only letters.

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8 Re: Who's the Mama? on Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:25 pm

Aasiyah wrote:I think that they short vowels came first
Right. That's what I meant when I said "long vowels originate..." meaning "long vowels come from...". Let's establish that opinion from the angle of the sounds since those were present even before writing. Bismillaah!

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9 Re: Who's the Mama? on Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:33 pm

nase.elah wrote:Because they didn't use dots or vowels back in the time when the Qur'aan was being revealed, only letters.

Tayyib. We can say the writing was being developed all around, though. However...your statement may hold even more than Aasiyah's since, at the very least, the majority of the written alphabet was present (besides hamzah) prior to the written vowels. From the angle of writing (or even speech but it can be more clearly viewed from the former) we can look at it the flip way and ask: which vowel needs what in order to be seen?

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